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DoA RIP

Sun Nov 25, 2012, 1:37 AM
I have spent the last couple of years pretty much lurking on DoA, due to its stifling and incomprehensible rules on what can and can not be posted and the Draconian measures that can be taken against transgressors.  However, having the loosely-moderated chat section that was in operation whilst the forum was down for maintenance lured me out again and I started to get more involved in discussions and debates.  One of these was on where the line should be drawn on depictions of Nazi-styled characters in doll form.  Now, this is an interesting topic as there is clearly a market for fascist-style uniforms.  Fantasy Nazi clothing is made by a number of doll companies.  However, it is a deeply emotive topic and we had some intelligent contributions on both sides of the divide.  Some argued that, because of the horror of the Nazi movement and what it achieved and that it was stil in living memory, any allusions to Nazi party  should be avoided.  Others argued that it was the individual's choice what they did with their dolls and that all that was needed was a little sensitivity over posting warnings on photos threads.  A good debate got going that would, hoepfully, encourage those who were tempted to casual depictions of Nazis to think twice about what they were doing.  Useful, thoughtful stuff.

I got up this morning to find that the thread had been locked.  The reason was that "discussion of Nazis (costumes, characters, etc) is not allowed on DoA" and directed the reader to the forum rules.  The relevant one seems to be prohibition of "Offensive content. This includes profanity, volatile subjects that are handled in an offensive way and glorification of those who have committed atrocities (for example, Nazis, murderers, rapists, etc.)".  Glorification of those who have committed atrocities?  How could an intelligent, balance discussion of the difficulty of depicting a terrible episode of history possibly be glorification?

So, this is where it stands.  DoA continues to censor indiscriminately.  Discussion is stifled and, do you know what?  I really can't be doing with it any more.  I am writing this not because I am peeved, but because I am disappointed.  I have spent (wasted?) hours of my life browsing around DoA and joining in happily with discussions.  I feel that I can no longer do that.  Something has changed and that change has driven away so many of the people I know.  If it doesn't look critically at itself and how it operates, DoA will fade and die and that will be the end of what was actually a pretty entertaining era.  Shame.

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:icongalxey:
GalXey Featured By Owner Aug 18, 2013  Student General Artist
I only recently returned to DoA (after 3-4 years) to sell a doll and have a browse for ideas on new props/clothing to make only to find it very quite. I very rarely used to post in discussion threads but always loved reading the interesting ones discussing weird and interesting topics. I would love to have friends to chat to about my dolls , their characters and how we portray them in their little worlds inside our minds. I feel I have so much to discuss and think about , so much to learn about why we create our dolls as they are :) But DoA has gone to the immature children of the world that simply run around in circles chasing their tails :( The world needs a good mature outlet for us to share our knowledge and opinions I know I would practically live on it! :) sorry if that was lacking in grammar!
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:iconmeiselmaus:
MeiselMaus Featured By Owner Aug 20, 2013
As you would probably predict, I agree entirely.  I would welcome an adult doll/figure forum, without the unicorns and rainbows passive aggression of DoA and with a good amount of traffic.  Unfortunately, although there are many, many BJD fora, none that I have found meets those criteria.  I am still optimistic that something like that will develop, but let's see.  In the meantime, I post on here and lurk occassionally on DoA.
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:icongalxey:
GalXey Featured By Owner Aug 20, 2013  Student General Artist
are there any good BJD groups on DA? I have added any I happen to come across but most seem to have alot of the crazy youngsters as well -_-'
Now that I am older I really want to develop my characters into realistic and well balanced group of individuals. As a traditional artist as well I would love to be able to share their development through both mediums but I feel it may not be possible as most doll groups don't want other art of doll characters :/
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:iconmeiselmaus:
MeiselMaus Featured By Owner Aug 21, 2013
I follow a couple of groups on here but with no conviction, so can't recommend any.  If you want a medium to develop and show your characters, why not set up a website?  You can put whatever you like on that and people can enjoy your world.  It is a popular approach.  Mine is www.nachtzirkus.co.uk, in case you are interested.
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:iconsaber-jaganshi:
Saber-Jaganshi Featured By Owner Dec 14, 2012
I know what you mean, i stopped using DOA ages ago, just as all these new and uneeded rules were starting to come in. at the time i just stopped using it because i had other things that i needed to do, but i keep on hearing people talk about what its like at the moment and i really cant be bothered to put the effort into going back on there and getting back into it, it just doesnt seem worth it...
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:iconmeiselmaus:
MeiselMaus Featured By Owner Dec 17, 2012
No, no. It's not. I still pop on there every now and then for news, but that is about it.
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:iconseijikat:
seijikat Featured By Owner Dec 3, 2012
DoA is the most over moderated forum I belong to. I get they want to keep things in check and don't want controversy. But they do so at such an extent that it stifles creative content and discussion. It's just... aarrrgh.
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:iconmeiselmaus:
MeiselMaus Featured By Owner Dec 4, 2012
Well, yes. I have to agree. It might change, it might not. Let's see.
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:iconchizzie-shark:
chizzie-shark Featured By Owner Nov 29, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
I completely agree with what's being said here.

Most of the chat on DoA right now is stagnant. There's nothing being said that hasn't been said before. There is a constant influx of new members covering the same ground that we've all covered before. And I'm not talking about gushing over your first doll, because of course that's perfectly natural...but it seems the forum has become so big that no-one can find any information anymore. So they just ask the same questions again and again, make the same comments over and over...

I can appreciate that the mods have a really tough time moderating such a large forums, but it certainly has gone overboard. Just look at the number of people who have "Marketplace bans" or are "Banned" altogether! A few years ago this was a big deal. Nowadays it seems like people who have been around forever are getting banned, for trivial reasons.

Don't mean to hate on DoA, but you're right, it needs to grow up. The lack of maturity there is stifling. Anyway, I hope you don't disappear completely though! You're one of my favourite artists - maybe post more on dA instead? XD
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:iconmeiselmaus:
MeiselMaus Featured By Owner Nov 30, 2012
I agree. But the fact that the mods are having a hard time is because they are making more work for themselves than they need to. It is the most over-moderated forum I know of.

Personally, I can't see it changing. So, yes, I will be on there less. I will have to use it for the London meets and still depend on it for news, but I feel disinclined to join in. It just isn't my kind of place.

And I will always post picatures on here. You know it.
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:iconsharsarannon:
Sharsarannon Featured By Owner Nov 27, 2012  Professional General Artist
Aw. I will seriously miss your insights and beautiful work. I didn't always like some of the things you like topic-wise, but your work is absolutely gorgeous and you're an amazing artist whom I admire greatly.
I hang out on another forum specifically because DoA has problems with what you are and are not allowed to say. I'm constantly having to stop myself from speaking my mind there, so I just use it for strictly hobby stuff and nothing else.
They ban talking about Nazis but regularly tolerate pedophilia/"loli/shota", non-consensual sex act portrayal, and all sorts of other things. I got a thread shut down once by insisting that Native American tribes be treated as separate cultures. Apparently that was "inflammatory".
So yeah, I use the site, I just don't expect to be myself there. It's definitely less of a social club and more of a shop/library.
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:iconmeiselmaus:
MeiselMaus Featured By Owner Nov 28, 2012
Oh FFS on the native American observation. Why can they not act like open-thinking adults rather than maiden aunts? I just can't understand it.

Yes, as I said in response to another comment, consistency and logic are not DoA's thing.
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:iconmathurinedevalois:
MathurineDeValois Featured By Owner Nov 27, 2012
Maturity is key to any discussion and if DoA don't allow a discussion this suggests to me that they have a severe lack of faith in the maturity of their members. Of course photo's depicting Nazi violence would be offensive as would any violent photo's which are banned, quite rightly, from DoA. But some gore is allowed - with warnings. As long as a uniform is simply being shown, not the acts of the nazi's themselves then with a warning I don't see why they can't be shown, especially as the doll companies are the ones selling the uniforms.
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:iconmeiselmaus:
MeiselMaus Featured By Owner Nov 28, 2012
Matty, you know full well that the people who run DoA treat its members like children. And, because of the nature of the majority of its members, this is tolerated.

And I once posted a photo thread which suggested brutality in a Nazi setting. It thrived. Silly sods.
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:iconmathurinedevalois:
MathurineDeValois Featured By Owner Nov 29, 2012
~flail~
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:icontoshirodragon:
toshirodragon Featured By Owner Nov 26, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
Come to Dove Tree!!!

And you know I miss your gang, especially Horse and Palladino.

I think if we DON'T talk about nazi Germany we will forget WHY is is such a painful subject and that will open the door for a repeat of that tragedy. Society needs to acknowledge things that make it uncomfortable and instead of erasing it, face it and discuss why it makes us uncomfortable.
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:iconmeiselmaus:
MeiselMaus Featured By Owner Nov 28, 2012
I think it must have been a knee-jerk reaction to having raised this taboo subject rather than any real belief that the discussion was actually in any way glorifying Nazism or being offensive. They have permitted Ringdoll's baby Nazis to be on topic, for frick's sake. Even I found those to be offensive.
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:icontoshirodragon:
toshirodragon Featured By Owner Nov 28, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
Knee-jerk? NOT DoA!

Yeah probably...
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:icon5omnifer:
5omnifer Featured By Owner Nov 26, 2012   General Artist
I wanted to become a member at Dove Tree, but after I tried to register, they never sent my account email.

Also, WtF, I was just on DoA looking for the debate section, and it seems... well, Disappeared. :cry:
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:iconmeiselmaus:
MeiselMaus Featured By Owner Nov 28, 2012
They have moved it. You have to search around a bit, if your corneas aren't burned out by the new colour scheme.
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:icon5omnifer:
5omnifer Featured By Owner Dec 4, 2012   General Artist
Hm, I did search for it. Even the link in the Wiki says "invalid forum". As far as I could tell, they moved a bunch of debate threads into the general discussion area. If you (or someone else reading this) knows where it's gone, I'd love to know.

I'm going to miss the old forum theme (though the new options are appreciated). And now BJDcollectasy has turned all Las Vagas too. Kids need to get off my lawn, etc.
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:icontoshirodragon:
toshirodragon Featured By Owner Nov 27, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
Try it again? They were having trouble. I never got a confirmation email, I just went and tried loggin in and it worked...
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:icon5omnifer:
5omnifer Featured By Owner Nov 27, 2012   General Artist
Oh okay, will do. Thanks!
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:iconcatbanshee:
Catbanshee Featured By Owner Nov 25, 2012
as long as a disscussion maintains a civil and mature route you should be able to disscuss ANYTHING. for Geezus sake, that's how we learn! I'm no fan of Nazis, but they had some DAMN sharp uniforms! discussing what tasteful limits should be is a great and facinating topic. there's no glorifying evil in discussing it. I don't really bother with discussion threads on DoA. I just look through the galleries, search the archives if I'm curious about a model, and use the marketplace; therefore, I wasn't really aware how heavily censored the discussion threads are. it's not a true discussion if only certain people are allowed to voice their oppinions.
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:iconmeiselmaus:
MeiselMaus Featured By Owner Nov 28, 2012
Well, exactly. But perhaps we are used to different settings where analysis, discussion and critique are normal. Perhaps it is a cultural thing. I don't know. It baffles me.
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:iconcatbanshee:
Catbanshee Featured By Owner Nov 28, 2012
yeah. I usually find myself in disscussions about religion and politics. I just don't understand why more people can't see that when we disscuss topics we expand our knowlege and become richer for the experience. the only way to learn and form a good oppinion is to test it against others. people just can't seem to be civil and talk about things like grown ups anymore. it's pathetic. and when the "sensitivity police" try to make sure nobody ever says anthing offensive to the point where we can't even disscuss sensitive topics, our whole socitey suffers for it.
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:iconmeiselmaus:
MeiselMaus Featured By Owner Nov 30, 2012
This is it. Not that people are being necessarily offensive (no one was in the Nazi thread) but that the culture there is of over-sensitivity. One may not be in the least bit controversial (well, except inside certain, bizarre areas, such as depicting child dolls in sexual contexts. I find that distasteful and move on. We all have our limits). So, yes, it is fairly contentless and it is no great loss to visit there less, I don't think.
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:iconcatbanshee:
Catbanshee Featured By Owner Dec 1, 2012
all I ever do there now is visit the galleries or look at the sewing threads. :/ I think if you are to sensitive to even discuss a topic then just don't look at the damn thread. "censorship is like telling a man he isn't allowed to eat steak because a baby can't chew it" I forget who said that..
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:iconmeiselmaus:
MeiselMaus Featured By Owner Dec 1, 2012
LOL. I like that one. And I agree with your sentiment. You can see the topic in the title of the thread. If you don't like it, don't raise your blood pressure by reading it.
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:iconcatbanshee:
Catbanshee Featured By Owner Dec 1, 2012
exactly. pretending that sensitive issues don't exist is detrimental to socitey in SO many ways. there should be a warning pop up when people open the interent telling them that there is a vast world of stuff that does not consist of candy and rainbows and that is they can't handle that they should just crowl back under tha rock where they live.
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:iconmeiselmaus:
MeiselMaus Featured By Owner Dec 2, 2012
Thankfully, not all fora are so over-protective of their members. Perhaps it is something to do with doll hobbyists that they become offended by the filth and chaos of real life.
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(1 Reply)
:icon5omnifer:
5omnifer Featured By Owner Nov 25, 2012   General Artist
May I ask what do you suggest as an alternative to DoA for BJD discussion? I've sort of searched around, but most other forums seem quite depopulated.

The only other doll forum I've posted on with regularity made DoA look positively libertarian. :-/

Also, I don't know how to put this tactfully, but you're pretty much a celebrity, aren't you? Isn't there something you can do, what with your status in the community and all? Or have you tried, and this is throwing in the towel?

I'm sad to see this journal entry. When I first joined DoA in 2009, your posts were sensational. They formed so much of my sense of what this hobby could be at its very best.
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:iconmeiselmaus:
MeiselMaus Featured By Owner Nov 28, 2012
Well, first of all, let me blush and thank you for your very kind comments.

Secondly, no, I haven't found an alternative. I have tried a few other BJD fora and they just don't do it for me. This might be to do with me being older than many BJD hobbyists and the fact that my tastes probably differ somewhat what from the traditional BJD aesthetic. I now tend to stick to my action figure fora for chat and I have a couple of private fora where I talk to the doll-collector friends who I have known for years. But, yes, it would be great to have an alternative. If I had more time and energy, I would set one up.

Thirdly, yes, I have made suggestions and comments on things that I feel DoA could be doing differently. So, yes, I guess I am throwing in the towel. I still have to use it to let people know about the Pygmalion Society meets, but even that has now gone over to Facebook, by popular demand. I just know that I am drifting a long way away from it all now.
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:icon5omnifer:
5omnifer Featured By Owner Dec 4, 2012   General Artist
Ah, well. Fair enough. I thank you for trying, and for your gracious reply.
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:iconfadeddreamss:
fadeddreamss Featured By Owner Nov 25, 2012  Student General Artist
This is really sad, but I have to agree with you. I've been lurking on DoA ever since I got into the hobby, because the forum always seemed really incomprehensible to me and I've seen many people get banned to stupid things, that could be solved with just a warn and a PM from the moderation to tell them they are doing something wrong. People seem to take things in a very extreme way on DoA, it's like they just don't want to think and work on the issues. I don't think a forum administration should be like that, if you don't want to do the work, handle it to someone who does!

I've always like these kinds of threads, because many people contribute in intelligent and constructive ways, so how it is any glorification, I don't know. I think that the admins and mods confuse their own principles by the ones of the community, so what offends them is banned. The same happens to the dolls that are on topic, or off topic. In which criteria are they based to choose? I ask this because I've seen many beautiful BJDs being treated as off-topic on DoA but they just had everything a BJD needs to have to be a BJD. I don't understand.

It's a big shame, because the most useful part of DoA will be lost too if the forum goes down the hill like this. And I'm talking about the discussions area, the market place and the Tutorials and Photo requests areas. They are very useful for everyone in the hobby and I understand that I only have this knowledge about the hobby because I researched a lot on DoA in the early times...
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:iconmeiselmaus:
MeiselMaus Featured By Owner Nov 28, 2012
You have hit the nail on the head quite a few times there.

Yes, it does appear as though the people who are currently running the forum resent having to do it. Why do it, then? If you don't love providing a space for hobyists to talk and exchange ideas and get excited about the hobby, move along. Don't stay and make everyone miserable, for pity's sake.

And, yes, the forum is a great resource for information that has been built by its members over the years. I hope it will continue so those resouces are not lost.

And the criteria that have been causing the most problem in understanding on-topic/off-topic decisions appear to be the aesthetic ones. There were (perhaps still are) two of them. One is "Asian aesthetic". The other is called "I know it when I see it". Neither have been explained clearly. "Asian aesthetic" doesn't seem to mean that the doll needs to look Asian, as many don't, but is more like a negative definition that the doll should not have the "fey" (favourite disparaging term, that) aesthetic of some Western dolls, or look like a traditional porcelain doll. The "I know it when I see it" criterion seems to be a criterion of precedent. If the new doll looks like something that has previously been deemed on topic, then it can be on topic too. It is an intrinsically conservative criterion that stifles creativity and innovation.

We know these criteria don't work from an OE verion of a sculpt being deemed on topic when the dreaming version was off topic. Sense? None whatsoever.
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:iconfadeddreamss:
fadeddreamss Featured By Owner Nov 28, 2012  Student General Artist
LOL Indeed, this criteria is completely conservative! I see dolls as art, and why do we have to limit our minds so much by saying which kind of aesthetic is right or wrong for the forum? There would be a ton of beautiful, amazing dolls being posted in the forums. It not only pleases the community, but also helps the artists of those dolls to get some recognition, it helps them. And why are animal-like dolls in-topic, but other kinds aren't? I mean, in the beginning of the hobby, there were only human dolls. The innovation comes naturaly in a community like this, so it's kind of obvious someone will want to try out new things and extend the boundaries of creativity and just make an anthro doll, a very curvy body, or a doll without a face. Many of the companies we see don't have an exact Asian aesthetic style, and if I may ask, what is Asian aesthetic? Should the doll look like it came right from an anime? Should it look like an asian person? In therms of arts, a japanese artist can paint or sculpt in a european realistic style, just like there are a lot of americans drawing manga. This is weird...

What I think is that they wanted to make things so strict that they ended up loosing the grip and making it all too hard for themselves to moderate.
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:iconmeiselmaus:
MeiselMaus Featured By Owner Nov 30, 2012
I have long since decided that it is pointless trying to apply logic to what goes on in there. It is just an exercise in frustration.
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:iconfadeddreamss:
fadeddreamss Featured By Owner Nov 30, 2012  Student General Artist
Yeah, it feels like fighting a lost war... even though it is sad, I feel happy that I'm not the only one thinking this
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:iconhellsing365:
Hellsing365 Featured By Owner Nov 25, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
DoA does like banning anything that's not angels, kittens, and rainbows.
Ya know what! I'm insulted by angels! I don't believe in god, lets ban them! :P I find 'god bless' offensive! Hate hate hate!

More maturely here, I see where you're coming from. I don't post pictures or talk there anymore for the same reasons. My opinion is out numbered or it will anger someone. People get banned so easily there, and I'd rather keep my browsing privileges. The database is my favorite place to lurk...
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:iconmeiselmaus:
MeiselMaus Featured By Owner Nov 28, 2012
I really don't mind if my opinion is in the minorty in a discussion. I just object to someone coming in and saying "That's enough, now!" when we are enjoying the talk. And I am a little anal about logic and consistency. The Nazi thread was locked in a day whereas a very similar thread about depictions of other baddies (serial killers etc) has been thriving. It makes no sense.
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:iconalgesiras:
Algesiras Featured By Owner Nov 25, 2012  Professional Writer
It's a pity because you're one of the DoA members I love the most the posts and pictures. Many people are upset with some of DoA rules, I've been upset too by some of the mods decisions and interventions. However, as an admin of a doll forum, I understand what they're going through, and anybody should read Armeleia's blog about this: It's extremely hard to please everybody in a community when thousands are yelling "I, me, mine!!" at the same time. The more a community is big, the more the rules are complicated and restrictive.
There are some themes, like religion, copy/inspiration, or politics, or, in the case you are talking about, offensive content, when many people are involved in the discussion, those topics will go bad at some point. It's not a speculation, it's a fact, trust me. It's a disappointment to see an intelligent debate being shut down when it doesn't make any harm. I'm with you on this. But I can also understand the mods, who prefer to close a debate (or forbid it) before it goes bad.
Because if they don't, THEY will have to cope when the debate is escalating. Not the intelligent, moderate participants who can go away when they want.
(sorry for my english I'm not sure what I wrote is understandable)
(one of the reasons I can't participate in those debates is that my english is not good enough, as I'm a foreigner. ^^; )
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:iconmeiselmaus:
MeiselMaus Featured By Owner Nov 28, 2012
Your English is better than mine. ;)

Yes, a mod's job is to keep the place functioning well for all the members. However, there is such a thing as over-moderation, and this is what we tend to see over there. I belong to many other fora and one of the differences between those (also 13+) fora and DoA is that members are treated as the adults that they are. DoA feels like being in an institution. Not really where I want to spend my leisure time.
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:iconindolight:
indolight Featured By Owner Nov 25, 2012
I understand you in some way, I am russian and we have a big russian bjd-forum alike DoA, it called BJD-club. I was a moderator of this forum some time ago, but then I decided to leave it, because was too much disappointed about how things changed. It's always disappointing when for some reasons you don't want to be a part of that thing you've spent a lot of time because of rules/people/discussions and etc. =( Now I watching only marketplace and group orders, and don't want to join to any discussion there. I am sorry if my comment here is improper.
P.S.: I remember the time we have the same discussion about Nazi bjd-uniform on our forum, and it went to a holywar, lol. But I don't remember was it closed or not.
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:iconmeiselmaus:
MeiselMaus Featured By Owner Nov 28, 2012
My dear, please don't apologise for expressing your opinion here! This is what DoA has done to us, make us distrust our own opinions on what should be said where. Say what you like on my journal!

Yes, it is sometimes a shame that things have to change. When it is a change for the general good, I shrug my shoulders and move on. However, I can't see who these changes could benefit, and that irks me.

Our Nazi discussion had remained calm and measured. If it had broken down into chaos I can see a reason for a mod to step in and warn us to keep it down. As it was, no reason to intervene that I could see.
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:iconlajvio:
lajvio Featured By Owner Nov 25, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
I only use doa for the marketplace mostly, and the database and picture request anyway. Since there is never new discussions there, every new interesting discussion get shut down, claiming it's off topic or wrong. And I rarely joins discussions either, not since I was threatened and called some really nasty words in one discussion. So yeah, i only use doa for my own needs, not giving in to their community much at all...
And about the natzi uniforms... I have a slight uniform fetish, so I like uniforms, any uniforms really as long they fall to my liking. Some of the natzi uniforms were actually nice looking. Do that mean that I like natzis? Of course not! I would not get a doll character that were a natzi, but a character that wears a uniform would be delightful! And I have no problem with uniforms, even if most of uniforms around the world stands for violence and war. The one thing that can irk me is when they slap an arm band on the uniform with some random weird symbol. But other than that? Bring out the uniform so I can drool a bit please :D
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:iconmeiselmaus:
MeiselMaus Featured By Owner Nov 28, 2012
It seems that this is the way that a lot of people are going. to use DoA as a resource rather than a community. Thing is, I did use it as a community, for a long time, and enjoyed it. Now? I really can't be arsed and that is a shame. I guess I am just grieving for the heyday of DoA, which is now long since gone.
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:iconlajvio:
lajvio Featured By Owner Nov 28, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
It's such a shame =/ I mean there should be a great community in this hobby, but there isn't =/ I miss the days when I was naive and enjoyed the bjd community, but that was before people started to show how ignorant and fucked up there were =/
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:iconmeiselmaus:
MeiselMaus Featured By Owner Nov 28, 2012
Well, I am currently exploring the possibility of offering an alternative forum. There is a lot to be explored, as there are already other BJD fora out there, but I will keep my journal updated with any developments. Don't get angry, get active!
Reply
:iconlajvio:
lajvio Featured By Owner Nov 28, 2012  Hobbyist Photographer
I actually started a own forum, a local forum, as a reaction on the big here in my country. I was not popular at all. I was look at as a traitor. But I started it, and it was fun for some time :) A great experience :)
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